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- rockfishTitanium
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CNC toolroom lathes ???
Assuming you had a very good condition Southwestern Industries TRAK lathe or HAAS TL1 or TL2, what kind of realistic, repeatable tolerances can you expect to hold on a CNC toolroom lathe with an Aloris toolpost ???
Still thinking about a CNC lathe of some kind, and rolling over all kinds of different ideas. For the most part, with my current customers and the type of work I do, a toolroom type of CNC lathe would make a lot of sense, but not if I couldn't repeatably hold tight tolerances with it. I am very interested in doing some production work down the road, but right now, my customers are NOT production customers....so the toolroom type of CNC lathe might make some sense.
Ideally, I would like to start off by getting a toolroom type lathe, then within a year or so, hopefully step up to a turning center of some kind.
Frank - Diamond
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You can hold the same tolerance you could with a manual lathe. The same rules apply. Take one finish pass, measure the diameter, adjust the tool offset, take the final finish pass. No reason you could not hold tolerances of a few tenths with some diligence.
CNC lets you do so much more. For example, what if your part has a slight taper due to part deflection? What would you do on a manual lathe? Get out the tool post grinder? On a CNC, you just add in a quick variable to your tool path to take out the taper. With CNC you no longer need form tools or ball turning attachments.
If you plan to get a turning center soon why not just get it now and skip the tool room machine? I do all kinds of one off tool room work in an enclosed turning center. Having a turret and full flood coolant is a must IMHO. I used to do this stuff on an open manual lathe. I find I am faster and have better results just using a turning center. The only issue is getting time on the machine so as not to interfere with production. - CBlairDiamond
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Frank,
I have a Haas TL-1, and while some people who have the similar machine and use gang tooling claim they can keep .0002-.0003 I find that with the Aloris toolpost I tend to get about +/- .0005 pretty consistently. That is on the same tool and similar cycles or on the same part. However when I try to keep tolerances less than that I will find myself 'hunting' for the middle.
I find it works best to do all the roughing and then keep the same tool in the holder and run all the parts again with just that one tool. Usually ends up with a smaller size curve that way.
I have heard that the MultiFix toolholders repeat better. I would also think that for the extra money in a SWI or Romi machine you would get better accuracy than from the TL-1.
I do like the machine for speed and ease of use but part to part accuracy better than .0005 is not what it is best for. Hard to beat though for what you can do for the price of the machine.
Charles - rockfishTitanium
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The problem, I think, is the size of machine I would have to buy and the affordability.
20' machining length would be too short. I run out of travel on a 36' bed lathe all the time.
I run a lot of LONG parts. Lot's of spindles and shafts that would be too long for all but the biggest (and most expensive) turning centers.
Like I said, I would like to get into production work with more manageable pieces, but that's not where my work is coming from now.....and I don't know how smart it is to buy a machine based on work that I 'hope' to get. I have to base this purchase on what makes sense with the work I have right now.
Frank - Plastic
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I am in the same boat as you and I've decided that upon my research that the cost of these manual/cnc lathes warrants buying a good used full time cnc lathe with turret. Once you learn the control it seems like it would be much more useful even on one offs and prototyping. Sorrry , I didn't really answer your question.lol. Good luck in your search.
- Stainless
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Can't really comment on the lathes that you mentioned, except to state that we looked at the Southwest TRAK lathe when we bought our Romi M20. The Romi was much heavier, seemed more solid machine. That was one of the determining factors when we purchased it instead of the TRAK. We bought it with an electric turret, but it was delivered with an Aloris on it, the turret was delivered and installed a few days later. Alotis is in the toolroom.Originally Posted by rockfishAssuming you had a very good condition Southwestern Industries TRAK lathe or HAAS TL1 or TL2, what kind of realistic, repeatable tolerances can you expect to hold on a CNC toolroom lathe with an Aloris toolpost ???
Still thinking about a CNC lathe of some kind, and rolling over all kinds of different ideas. For the most part, with my current customers and the type of work I do, a toolroom type of CNC lathe would make a lot of sense, but not if I couldn't repeatably hold tight tolerances with it. I am very interested in doing some production work down the road, but right now, my customers are NOT production customers....so the toolroom type of CNC lathe might make some sense.
Ideally, I would like to start off by getting a toolroom type lathe, then within a year or so, hopefully step up to a turning center of some kind.
Frank
As for tolerances, I hold +/-.0001 regularly on it. I do treat it like a manual lathe as for when I'm getting set up. Program to leave a finish pass with a different tool, sneak up on things. But once your happy you've got the tool pushoff sorted out, go like hell. No worries. Watch your numbers as your batch goes through, adjusting offsets by the tenth if you need it. Makes little short runs a piece of cake. If you move the tailstock, I'd still sneak up on a tight part, but I'd do that with anything.
Only thing I have to watch for ,you wouldn't as your talking about using the Aloris. The Duplomatic turret is a little weak knee-ed in my opinion. You can't really lean on it hard like a 'real' turret. The tool disc Romi mounts on theirs isn't pinned to the actual turret mechanism. Only bolted. This makes it possible to 'slip' if you crash, but it also keeps you from knocking the guts out of the turret. Judgement call on the engineers part, but with the Aloris, you'd have a slight chance of the tool not registering to the half-tenth anyway, so in reality, a fair trade. My 2 cents worth. - OxDiamond
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I have looked at the TL4 already, and I can see some amount of usability of it, BUT I don't forsee myself ever buying a CNC machine with a toolpost instead of a turret.
I'm not going to debate the ability to replace toolholders dead nutz. The Aloris ad shows that you can split tenths, so no debate there.
But Rock - how often doo you drill with your Aloris?
And then go back and expect the turning tool to still be 'zeroed'?
That fact is all that I need to justify some type of fixed turret on anything but a huge machine.
What was the bed length on that big 1980 Cinci that was just in the F/S section with way low hours on it? Seems like that is big enough for you? The 900 is a good solid control! No gimmicks - no conversations - just the real deal, but the price was right if I recall. ??? Also - wasn't that in Detroit area? .. Maybe not - I forget..
You'll likely never find a more solid machine!
And at a fraction of the price of anything else!
OK - 22' travel and in Cinci. Close enough ..
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machinery-sale-wanted/fs-cincinnati-milacron-cinturn-ma-10cu-lathe-222315/
BTW - this is a CNC machine. The only tapes that you need to load ar the operating system. And you need to doo that anytime the power is out for more than few hours. I reccommend a back-up UPS to power the batt charger to combat that.
You can git a Behind the Tape Reader unit that will allow you to load via 'putor or other similar. Maybe even a Calmation unit? (those are SO handy!) I just sold a BTR a month ago on this site.
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Think Snow Eh!
Ox - Stainless
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Ox, I'm not saying that the Aloris won't, but splitting tenths with a tool that I have to load and unload by hand, consistently? That I'd have to see. I've run big Aloris's on manual machines. Fine piece of hardware. But splitting tenths? I know what the ad says too, but there's just to many if ands or buts in the equation for me to trust it. Takes a real good turret to consistently split tenths, and even they can worry me where it has GOT to be right the first time.Originally Posted by OxI have looked at the TL4 already, and I can see some amount of usability of it, BUT I don't forsee myself ever buying a CNC machine with a toolpost instead of a turret.
I'm not going to debate the ability to replace toolholders dead nutz. The Aloris ad shows that you can split tenths, so no debate there.
But Rock - how often doo you drill with your Aloris?
And then go back and expect the turning tool to still be 'zeroed'?
That fact is all that I need to justify some type of fixed turret on anything but a huge machine.
What was the bed length on that big 1980 Cinci that was just in the F/S section with way low hours on it? Seems like that is big enough for you? The 900 is a good solid control! No gimmicks - no conversations - just the real deal, but the price was right if I recall. ??? Also - wasn't that in Detroit area? .. Maybe not - I forget..
You'll likely never find a more solid machine!
And at a fraction of the price of anything else!
OK - 22' travel and in Cinci. Close enough ..
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machinery-sale-wanted/fs-cincinnati-milacron-cinturn-ma-10cu-lathe-222315/
BTW - this is a CNC machine. The only tapes that you need to load ar the operating system. And you need to doo that anytime the power is out for more than few hours. I reccommend a back-up UPS to power the batt charger to combat that.
You can git a Behind the Tape Reader unit that will allow you to load via 'putor or other similar. Maybe even a Calmation unit? (those are SO handy!) I just sold a BTR a month ago on this site.
----------------
Think Snow Eh!
Ox - rockfishTitanium
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Originally Posted by OxWhat was the bed length on that big 1980 Cinci that was just in the F/S section with way low hours on it? Seems like that is big enough for you? The 900 is a good solid control! No gimmicks - no conversations - just the real deal, but the price was right if I recall. ??? Also - wasn't that in Detroit area? .. Maybe not - I forget..
You'll likely never find a more solid machine!
And at a fraction of the price of anything else!
OK - 22' travel and in Cinci. Close enough ..
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machinery-sale-wanted/fs-cincinnati-milacron-cinturn-ma-10cu-lathe-222315/
BTW - this is a CNC machine. The only tapes that you need to load ar the operating system. And you need to doo that anytime the power is out for more than few hours. I reccommend a back-up UPS to power the batt charger to combat that.
You can git a Behind the Tape Reader unit that will allow you to load via 'putor or other similar. Maybe even a Calmation unit? (those are SO handy!) I just sold a BTR a month ago on this site.
----------------
Think Snow Eh!
Ox
Ox,
I thought about that machine, I really did.....but it's overwhelming. Basically, it's a very old machine that every single move has to be programmed into it to get it to do anything.
It's NOT user friendly. Perfect for someone that already knows G-code, etc., but not for someone like me. It would wind up just sitting there. I wouldn't be able to figure it out without conversational programming or canned cycles. The only way I'm going to figure out an old G-code machine like that is having someone stand over my shoulder that knows how to do it. My CNC man knows NOTHING about G-codes. Every machine he has ever programmed had conversational programming.
Frank - Diamond
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FrankOriginally Posted by rockfishOx,
I thought about that machine, I really did.....but it's overwhelming. Basically, it's a very old machine that every single move has to be programmed into it to get it to do anything.
It's NOT user friendly. Perfect for someone that already knows G-code, etc., but not for someone like me. It would wind up just sitting there. I wouldn't be able to figure it out without conversational programming or canned cycles. The only way I'm going to figure out an old G-code machine like that is having someone stand over my shoulder that knows how to do it. My CNC man knows NOTHING about G-codes. Every machine he has ever programmed had conversational programming.
Frank
I had a Cincy Vertical VMC.. I bought it sight unseen from the distributor that I used to work for as a salesman, I trust them.. It has a 900 control with the BTR and I set a pc out in the shop with a setup that allowed me to program with a little Cad Cam system, edit programs, download to machines, I also had another CNC Mill and a CNC Lathe all within a few steps of each other..What I'm trying to say here is that I knew NOTHING about that VMC when I bought it, ok, so I worked for the Co that built it, but I STILL KNEW NOTHING about THIS MODEL..Anyway, any machine you buy will require learning it's systems..
If you have the work, keep looking and buy something..
The lathe I bought was also bought from that same distributor, and it was the Hitachi Sieki with a built in CAD/CAM system.. I'm not going to call it conversational, but I will tell you this much..That machine and control had a library of materials and tools. You looked at the part print and told the machine what material.. then you told it the starting size of the material.. Then you began to describe the finished part.. from the insde out.. spose it was a 2 in bore 3 in deep.. you started there and then out front it became a 3 in bore and then a chamfer.. then the OD .. maybe it had a chamfer, a thread, and a straight dia back towards the chuck.. Anyway, after you put in what the print showed you wanted, it made the program, took all of 30 seconds or so..Then you could see the screen where it showed the tools making the cuts.. You like, or maybe you want to change something, go back and make the change, push PROGRAM again and a new program is generated.. Now you install the correct chuck jaws, and the right size drill and bor bars.. your now ready to make parts..
I put a young fellow on that lathe who's only experience was a cad drafting class at a tech shool and he was able to do great things with it in no time at all, and as for accuracy?.. a tenth was no problem, it had that tool setter sensor and you touched the tool to it for length and dia and it's set..
It's a real shame that Hitachi went out of biz, because that lathe was available in 1986, and it was the easiest machine to program and run bar none.. Maybe some other builder now over 20 yrs later has that ability today.. For your sake, I hope so.
If that Cincy is still available, for what $5 or $6K..ya oughta really think about it.. - Diamond
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Wow GaryE, that was a lot of useful information without any mention of a hot dog cart or learning Chinese.
- OxDiamond
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Gorrila:
That simply was not the issue that I wanted to argue. I will let that one to each his own. I can assure you that there was a tad bit of tongue in cheek. I would have a hard time trusting it to run any part with much tighter than +/- .005 on a manual tool change like that too. But it would likely hold +/- .002 pretty good really - if you kept your tools blowed off well.
Again - I was just choosing to point to other issues with that system.
Rock:
Yet aggin - in your ignorance - you assume the worst of the complexity of the system, and devalue your abilities greatly. Just b/c you play a guitar doesn't neccesarilly make you dumb. .. Now if you played drums .. ????
It is a simple 2 axis machine. It doesn't git much (eny?) simpler than that.
Other than a bore/turn cycle on the real big gurls, I never use canned cycles on the smaller machines. And I have a lot more going on than 2 axis'. I am sure that you could make chips with that in no time.
Maybe a simple 2 axis lathe would be a great place for you to git your feet wet on G code? Holding tightly to that conversational stuff will hold you back - as ever 'conversational' package is different from the next. G is G for the most part..
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Think Snow Eh!
Ox - Plastic
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TL Lathes
It really depends on YOU the operator and how well you can setup a machine. All lathes cut taper even if its a small amount, all machines have backlash even with double nut pre-loaded ball screws, if only from the deflection incurred with the force it takes to generate movement. I have a TRAK toolroom lathe, and if you know what to expect and how to program to counter backlash, you can keep it within 2 or 3 tenths, but as said before, you are better off to finish with the same tool you start with. 2 tenths difference in tool position makes 4 tenths difference in dia. Think about how big a diameter difference a small amount of torque difference would make on the tool post. Way faster than manual, but as with any machine, only as good as the operator/programmer/setup.
- Stainless
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Couple of TL-3s were on ebay recently, check the deleted listings.
Why buy a CNC machine that will not change tools for you. It opens up the possibility of operator error. The other cnc site has lots of info on the tl lathes. - Diamond
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why you say?.. I finally figgered out machinist arn't smart enough to see the biz advantages of eitherOriginally Posted by ewlseyWow GaryE, that was a lot of useful information without any mention of a hot dog cart or learning Chinese. - rockfishTitanium
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Umm...they show at least 20 manuals for that machine. Looks pretty complex to me.Originally Posted by OxRock:
Yet aggin - in your ignorance - you assume the worst of the complexity of the system, and devalue your abilities greatly. Just b/c you play a guitar doesn't neccesarilly make you dumb. .. Now if you played drums .. ????
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rockfish , learning how to program that lathe does not scare me , the only thing preventing me from grabbing it is having to run it with some kind of phase converter . I could put it to work yesterday . I have no experience with CNC or g-code , so the more manuals the better
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One of our next toolroom lathes..
.. is going to be a small used CNC Mazak with a six or eight inch chuck and collet system. Mazak has a conversational control that is just perfect for one off's and more. Very fast to set up and use. I have done 10 threaded shafts with snap ring grooves and bearing journals to .0002 all done in an hour. How can you beat that!
I just waiting to get about 15 to 20 k ahead to buy one. IMO there no faster machine to program and run a part on.
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Originally Posted by rockfishUmm...they show at least 20 manuals for that machine. Looks pretty complex to me.
Frank
Looking at the control, though, it looks a lot less complex than the Haas SL-20 I push the Green Button on every day.
The ad says available May '11, which would give you (and your CNC guy) a head start on becoming G Code literate.
That Cincy looks to be a serious metal muncher!
Myself, if I had the $$ and the room I'd be all over it!
Rex - OxDiamond
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Originally Posted by rockfishUmm...they show at least 20 manuals for that machine. Looks pretty complex to me.
Frank
No idea what all those books are for, but your right..
The programming manual that I have ratt here for my old 900 control on a 3 axis mill (2-1/2 axis actually, but we don't need to cornfuse the issue here..) is only 1/2' thick. This lathe will be less complex than that machine.
The only thing that conversational will doo for you that could be a hardship is when it comes to angles other than 45*. Then you gotta put your thinking tuk on a bit. Having the right pages marked in your Machinery Handbook for help on 'Solutions for a right triangle' can solve most of those as well.
If you find yourself needing to doo trig'd angles too often for your liking, you could prolly git a seat fo BobCad (?) to doo that info for you. Heck, BobCad can prolly code anything that a 2 axis lathe could need as well for that matter. (I ass u me that BobCad actually does some CAM as well?)
The rest of those books are 'documentation' for the machine layout and for the electric circuit. WAY valuable when it comes to wanting someone to fix the machine for you!
Don't be so intimidated!
Besides, doo you already speak HAAS? Why would you be OK with that? It's mostly G from what I have heard.. ????
EDIT:
BTW Rockie - I have 3 running right now. I should be running a 4th, but it's Sunday and I have been running as close to 24's as possible for weeks, so I guess I'm being a putz today..
Actually - I need to look at some quotes is what I should be dooing!
PS EDIT:
In a pinch - for angles and such that you could use some CAD help on - you COULD actually prog it into your new mills and note the start/stop points that they show! (I have done that before when I still had a Dynopath control.)
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You can doo it Frankie!
OxLast edited by Ox; 03-27-2011 at 08:07 PM. Reason: edit
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